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10 July 2009 @ 12:16 am
Torchwood  
I had a role-playing game on tonight. So this fresh and new, and I've finished watching it just this second.

I DON'T FORGIVE YOU FOR THIS, RUSSELL, YOU BASTARD.

I really don't.
 
 
 
(Deleted comment)
Valderys: Ianto - can't rain all the time?valderys on July 10th, 2009 06:54 am (UTC)
It could be. If RTD wants to reset Torchwood - what better way to do it than to leave Jack standing alone? Although I'm not sure I will be willing to watch it.

Feeling a bit grim this morning.

At least it isn't two weeks before Christmas, like B7?
Kerryblazekerryblaze on July 10th, 2009 12:45 am (UTC)
It hurts more than it should.
Valderys: Ianto - can't rain all the time?valderys on July 10th, 2009 06:59 am (UTC)
I'm crying rather more than I feel comfortable with. My shows feel like my family, and now one of them has died.
saraocallaghansaraocallaghan on July 10th, 2009 12:56 am (UTC)
Wasn't it terrible! I cried. Actual tears. Oh man, I can't wait for tomorrow to see how it's fixed, cos it better be. Russell better fix this!!!!!
Valderys: Ianto - can't rain all the time?valderys on July 10th, 2009 07:02 am (UTC)
I don't trust Russell enough to say that. There is a ray of hope in that the engineer chap is seen alive in the trailer, and it looked like he died too, so...
Caminando, desaparezcomargueritem on July 10th, 2009 02:23 am (UTC)
I HATE HIM. I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THIS. I REFUSE TO STOP SHOUTING AT THE INTERNET. BASTARD. I HOPE HE METAPHORICALLY DIES IN A FIRE.
Valderys: Ianto - can't rain all the time?valderys on July 10th, 2009 07:06 am (UTC)
Metaphorically, I agree with you. I think he's killed his own show. There's tragedy, and then there's murder.
prochytesprochytes on July 10th, 2009 09:17 am (UTC)
I am hanging fire until it is certain that we are not looking at a cataleptic trance-state here - one good and deep enough to fool even Jack's rebooting mechanism into thinking that the victim is dead and behaving accordingly. The 456 strikes me as sufficiently sadistic to find that kind of stunt amusing. Another good reason to squash it like a bug once the fight-back starts.

(My pet theory of the moment is that the 456 are a dying race. The reason that UNIT cannot detect the Warship of Ultimate Doom in orbit is that it does not exist. The 456 rattles a good sabre, but the limit of the offensive capabilities it has demonstrated thus far are: a terrorist-level biological attack on a building it had got other people to adapt for it already; a hypnotic mo-jo like that of the Sycorax, which may well be unable to suggest self-harm in the target or persist beyond a few seconds at a time; and killing off an old man it had previously modified. Nasty, but a long way from The Master nuking Japan in a strop. Maybe what is in the tank is all that is left of the 456, although that would also imply that it has an awful lot of automated tech at its disposal as well; it would be bloody hard to process that many people otherwise. "WE are coming" on this reading is part of the smoke and mirrors; "I am coming" would be much less scary, n'est-ce pas? My record on calling stuff in the Whoniverse is lousy, however.)

I too will be gutted if Ianto is really gone. Not so much of a personal sorrow as I suspect would obtain for most of the fandom: I like him and find him a fascinating character, but I could say the same for all of TW 3 (even, eventually, Owen). Tosh was my personal favourite, and I continued with the show when she was gone. What really bothers me is that I love TW as an ensemble, and now only two of the characters about whom I care are left (well, four if we throw in the ever-awesome Rhys, for whose safety I fear, and PC Andy too). And I will just leave if the fandom rushes to fill the Ianto-shaped hole with Gwen-bashing,the phenomenon which irritates me most in it.

For now, though, I am on the edge of my seat. I have not been counting down the hours to a finale like this since Season Five of BtVS. Roll on tonight!
the camelion Poet: murdered by lunaticsaltogetherisi on July 10th, 2009 10:05 am (UTC)
I really hope you are right.
prochytes: Tosh Discworldprochytes on July 10th, 2009 11:46 am (UTC)
So do I. But my record on calling stuff in this continuity does not inspire confidence.
(Deleted comment)
Valderys: Ianto - can't rain all the time?valderys on July 10th, 2009 12:03 pm (UTC)
Actually, bizarrely, that is somewhat how I feel too. I hate (hate, hate, hate with a firey burning passion) that RTDs killed Ianto off, but if goes Blake's 7 and we only have Jack left standing, and that's the end, then fair enough. It's good and dramatic, and I hate it but I will understand. If they go off as the bloody Gwen and Jack show, I'm sorry, prochytes, but I won't be able to help Gwen-bashing. I love Eve to pieces - she's the one that reconciled me to Gwen being the all-singing-all-dancing-the writer's-love-her character that she is, but she is *not* all that - and I hate that she's protected when everyone else dies around her. And if they have her and Rhys walzing off into some bloody heteronormative happy paradise to have their *lovely* family, then I might actually want to stab her with knives.

Sorry.
the camelion Poet: murdered by lunaticsaltogetherisi on July 10th, 2009 12:29 pm (UTC)
I agree - I think if Gwen dies as well, if only Jack remains, then at least the show will kind of reach a balance.

Eve is amazing, Gwen less so, and definitely over rated by confused writers that never really seemed to agree who she is. I hope RTD pulls off something like killing her too though; if he goes for the Jack and Gwen show he is going to be absolutely pilloried at Comic Con...
Valderys: Ianto - can't rain all the time?valderys on July 10th, 2009 01:13 pm (UTC)
God, I hope Comic Con shows him what a mistake it was - but he's so arrogant, I doubt it will matter. He's said it before - he doesn't give a damn about the fans. In fact, the greater the outpouring, I imagine the harder he'll stick to his guns...
prochytes: Clever Toshprochytes on July 10th, 2009 12:36 pm (UTC)
No apology needed.


If they go off as the bloody Gwen and Jack show, I'm sorry, prochytes, but I won't be able to help Gwen-bashing.

That is a pity. For what it is worth, I do not think that the "Gwen and Jack show" would work well either. While I do not like Gwen-bashing, I do understand the considerations from which it springs.

And if they have her and Rhys walzing off into some bloody heteronormative happy paradise to have their *lovely* family, then I might actually want to stab her with knives.

That scenario (while certainly not my favourite) would not altogether displease me, actually, as long as it was made abundantly clear that Gwen had had to put Torchwood and Jack behind her. It would give the whole run of the show a sort of unity: Gwen was Jack's experiment - an attempt to see whether Torchwood could be combined with an outside life - and that experiment was a failure.


Still hoping that Ianto Aten't Dead, however.

(Deleted comment)
prochytes: Clever Toshprochytes on July 10th, 2009 01:56 pm (UTC)
Sounds reasonable to me. I did wonder whether one of the points that Alice makes is that she is further along on the same story that characterizes all of Jack's interactions. You die young, or you leave him.
Valderys: Ianto - can't rain all the time?valderys on July 10th, 2009 01:24 pm (UTC)
If Gwen does walk into the sunset, leaving Jack alone, that's close enough to a Gauda Prime ending, that I would be content with that (not happy, no, but content :) Sorry, dear, I'm full of wild despair and sudden violence, and there's nowhere for it to go...
prochytes: Clever Toshprochytes on July 10th, 2009 02:04 pm (UTC)
Sorry, dear, I'm full of wild despair and sudden violence, and there's nowhere for it to go...

No problem. My shoulders are broad. Well, not that broad. I am, after all, a bit of a short-arse. But pretty broad for my height, all things considered. I am more than happy to give you the chance to vent.
prochytes: Clever Toshprochytes on July 10th, 2009 12:08 pm (UTC)
Agreed. A "Gauda Prime" ending would confirm Torchwood as what it has always had the potential to be: a human tragedy played out in the Whoniverse. It has never shied away from the likely consequences of alien-fighting when one does not have the Last of the Time Lords to watch one's back. All of TW 3 were clear-sighted about their life-expectancy. (And, indeed, Ms. Johnson, an external but not unintelligent observer, actually commented on it.) I am always a sucker for heroes who know how this ride has to end, but go ahead with it anyway.

So yes: Gauda Prime would be glorious. But that would not make it hurt any less.

Valderys: Ianto - can't rain all the time?valderys on July 10th, 2009 12:12 pm (UTC)
Oh, and to add to my other comment - I hope you're right. I hope there is a deep trance or something. But even if they have killed everyone, I reckon you're right about the 456 being relatively powerless. Mainly because if they're more powerful than that then I don't see what Jack can actually do without resources?

And yes, I loved the ensemble too - I was shocked for that very reasdon when they killed off both Owen and Tosh. People care about characters, it's what they keep watching for - you kill too many, people stop caring. They stop watching. It's one reason why I wonder if RTD is planning this as the final end.

Seems stupid to me in light of the move to BBC1 and the viewing fgures though. Which doesn't mean it isn't true.
prochytes: Clever Toshprochytes on July 10th, 2009 01:52 pm (UTC)
Mainly because if they're more powerful than that then I don't see what Jack can actually do without resources?

Very good point. If it is not possible for Jack just to stomp back into Thames House and show the 456 what an Unfeasibly Big Gun can do, then it must have some sort of Achilles' Heel. The most promising place to look for that would be in the body of the unfortunate Clem; maybe they rejected him in 1965 because something about his body chemistry is inimical to them? The problem with that solution is that finding this weakness and exploiting it would need

a) a medical genius (to isolate it)
b) a technological genius (to deliver it) and
c) a magitech Base (in which to put it together).

In other words: Owen; Tosh; and the Hub. Note the small but crucial flaw here.

People care about characters, it's what they keep watching for

Very true. I was worried after "Exit Wounds" for the same reason; quite apart from my Tosh!crush, I did not think that Torchwood would work if they down-sized from Five-Man Band to Power Trio. In fact, I have been rather impressed by how well they managed it, but it does still leave the interactions less richly-textured than they used to be.

[Also, just in pragmatic terms, it is faintly ridiculous that an installation the size of the Hub had a staff of three. This is part of the goofy charm, of course, but one does wonder how the trio could keep things running, even with Ianto's Leet Jeeves Skillz. Automation hath its limits.]

you kill too many, people stop caring. They stop watching.

Indeed. Consider Primeval; not, for my money, in anything approaching Torchwood's league, but still a fun watch of a Saturday night. By the end of Season Three, every character I found interesting except Lester had died or vamoosed. One Ben Miller (awesome though he is) does not a dino-drama make. I did not weep when it was cancelled.

Seems stupid to me in light of the move to BBC1 and the viewing fgures though. Which doesn't mean it isn't true.

The policy of the Beeb, like the Peace of God, passeth all understanding. Let us content ourselves with the reflection that it is still better than FOX.





the camelion Poet: murdered by lunaticsaltogetherisi on July 10th, 2009 10:07 am (UTC)
Me neither.

I am just so disappointed and angry.
Valderys: Ianto - can't rain all the time?valderys on July 10th, 2009 12:04 pm (UTC)
I keep wanting to burst into tears again, and I'm at work, and *really* can't.
the camelion Poetaltogetherisi on July 10th, 2009 12:22 pm (UTC)
Oh you poor thing. *hugs*

I am sad, but at the moment the anger, annoyance and disappointment, (as well as burgeoning pathetic hope that they will reverse it even though I don't really think they will) is masking the sadness some what. I just wrote a whole bunch over at my LJ, and hoped that would be it really, but every few minutes I just want to talk, and on the verge of a rant, about it more.
Valderys: Ianto - can't rain all the time?valderys on July 10th, 2009 01:15 pm (UTC)
I've done some ranting, and it does help, but there aren't many peeps in work to rant at about this sort of thing. There aren't many geeks. So mostly I'm trying to contain it all, all the emotion and stuff, but it just keeps wanting to leak out...
the Legs, the Nose and Mrs Robinson: Ianto thinks Jack is dashingmatildabj on July 10th, 2009 04:56 pm (UTC)
Felt exactly the same today. I was crying like a baby last night, no TV show has ever had this effect on me!

As far as I'm concerned, the Jack/Ianto relationship was the emotional heart of the show. Ripping that out kills the show completely for me - I'm just not interested any more.

What you said about RTD above is so true - he loves giving fans the runaround, he loves the power he's got over people. That also gives me a wee bit of hope: that he's only doing this to give us the runaround, and, like the faux-regeneration in the next-to-last ep of S4 of DW, it will all be explained tonight.

That's what I'm hanging on to, anyway. *clings*